Hillary Diehard vs. Progressive Berner

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I came across the above post, which confused me since both the Presidential campaign and election both are over and done with. I noticed that this particular individual had changed his profile image multiple times but only the color. He also happened to be a former temp agent that I interviewed with back in 2011. I was disappointed to see that he supported a neoliberal war-monger but hey, it’s not uncommon to come across uninformed voters in America. I would have ignored his post but then I noticed he had also previously attacked Bernie Sanders. Supporting Hillary was bad enough, but hating on Sanders? The progressive with a track-record of fighting harder for the middle-class than anyone else in Congress?

That was going too far.

Still curious what motivates a Hillary-supporter, I respectfully debated him to find out what made him such a diehard. Take note of how frequently he avoids answer questions and tosses out insults, hallmarks of her voters.

Here is that debate in it’s entirety.
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DAVE
I provide a number of video links in this blog post. Curious if you have any substantive counter-arguments as I’ve yet to hear a single one articulated from Hillary-supporters.

And no, I’m not a Trump supporter. Voted for Bernie Sanders, then Jill Stein, and am just baffled by those who supported and continue to support Hillary Clinton. Would greatly appreciate being enlightened. I’m open-minded to your take.

Why Hillary Is Still The Worst Candidate
Why The Democrats Need To Lose The White House
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KEN
While you may be open minded, you are not practical. You long for ideological purity, the same exact mind set as an evangelical “Christian”, two sides of the same coin. Unable to understand complex issues and look for simple solutions, no wonder you remain baffled. You cannot fathom your own hypocrisy.

Maybe when you mature you may have a deeper understanding of actions and consequences, but probably not.

You bought into conspiracy theories and were manipulated by the Alt-Right. Congratulations. Meanwhile the endowment for the arts is gone, congratulations 👏
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DAVE
I asked for a substantive answer. You provided broad generalities. I’ll be more specific:

1) What was impractical about Bernie Sanders?
2) What complex issues am I failing to understand?
3) What am I baffled about?
4) What am I hypocritical about?
5) What am I immature about?
6) What conspiracy theories are you referring to?
7) What did Hillary Clinton stand for other than not being Trump? She did very little to address what she stood for and instead focused on what she was against. I’m asking what was she FOR that made her such a superior candidate?

Please avoid generalities and broad assertions. I’m looking for specific policy positions.

As for the endowment of the arts, don’t congratulate me. That was Trump’s doing and I didn’t vote for him. Feel free to blame his voters. But do not put words in my mouth. I am not impractical nor an ideological purist nor simplistic nor immature. Focus on ideas and policy, please.

Your response was a great example of why I remain baffled… every Hillary-supporter refuses to explain why their candidate was such a winner. They refuse to explain any substance and instead fall back on how terrible they believe the other candidates were.
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KEN
Stay baffled
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DAVE
So you won’t explain your position? If Hillary-supporters don’t learn how to articulate their arguments with genuine substance, Trump (or Pence) will be re-elected in 2020. I don’t want to see that happen, but if the Left refuses to communicate their positions articulately, that will be the outcome. And it won’t be my doing.

I vote for progressive candidates, btw. Every time.
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KEN
That’s nice. You don’t want substance, you want simple. One of the issues is, you see yourself as intelligent, and I do not.
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DAVE
No, I don’t want simple. What gave you that idea? Stop deflecting. I want substance. I want to hear some specific policy positions. Do you have ANY specifics to offer? Can you answer any of my questions?
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KEN
Then you should have read about them before you voted.
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DAVE
I did. But I already know where I stand based on MY research. YOU came to a different conclusion, hence why I’m asking what YOUR conclusions are based on. That way, perhaps, I can better understand why and how YOU came to that conclusion. Is that really so complicated? It’s called an exchange of ideas. This could be constructive if you’d focus on policy instead of deflecting and insulting me.

I’ll ask one more time: Do you have any specifics to offer? Can you answers any of the questions I listed?
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KEN
The next presidential election is 2020. 2016 is over. Maybe your intellectual capacity may grow by then, but probably not. The largest issue, you do not regret your vote but the EPA is gone, public education threatened. If you do not understand the consequences of that, well then you’re part of the problem not the solution.

Go find Bernie’s tax returns, explain his $10 million in foreign illegal contributions

Explain why Karl Rove would run ads for him from his PAC. Then why you have all those answers, tell me why you believe someone who didn’t have a job until they were 40 should be President of the US in 2016.

What was impractical, for starters you cannot demand free college from the WH, or single payer health care, it’s done in the House of Representatives.
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DAVE
You should give me a chance to respond before you presume that I won’t understand. Belittling isn’t productive.

Obama expanded offshore drilling. Hillary Clinton embraced fracking and openly promoted it. Obama’s Education pick was Arte Duncan, who favored charter schools and shut down many public schools in Chicago. He favored ending the K-12 public system.

Hillary on fracking was especially of great concern. Look at the massive gas leak at Porter Ranch, which undid years of green initiatives right here in California. That’s fracking, baby. And Hillary loved it.

I am not claiming either to be worse than Trump, but neither were quite the champions you presume them to be. I didn’t hear either of them speak against providing subsidies for Big Oil. Did you?

As for the EPA itself, it’s not yet gone and I highly doubt such an agency will actually get shut down. But I do share your concern. Climate change is the most important issue, by far.

Do you have a link to this $10 million that Bernie received? And what made it illegal? Hillary received plenty of funding from foreign countries, most notably $10+ million from Saudi Arabia.

Karl Rove did not run ads for Bernie Sanders. I’m uncertain about the $10 million you mentioned, but Bernie working in conjunction with Rove? I call bullshit on that one.
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KEN
It was illegal because it was foreign money. From Saudi Arabia that’s fake news you’re confused with the Clinton Foundation, meanwhile Bernie’s campaign was fined.

Karl Rove ads for Bernie in Iowa 👏
link: 
The Donors Who Love Bernie Sanders A Little Too Much
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DAVE
Yes, I’m aware that money went to the Clinton Foundation. And you think she didn’t touch any of it? She also received massive donations from the private prison industry and big oil. I presume you’re just fine with that?
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KEN
You got played by the GOP 👏 good job
link: Bernie Sanders’s Conservative Fanboys
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DAVE

The Bernie Sanders campaign had no connections to Karl Rove. Rove acted independently. You fucked that one up.
link: Bernie Sanders Gets Some Outside Help He Didn’t Ask For
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KEN
His campaign manager is married to Karl Rove’s cousin. Sit the fuck down 👏
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DAVE
As for that article you posted from The Atlantic:

“The notices from the FEC don’t necessarily implicate the campaign in illegal activity or suggest that Sanders’s presidential bid is built on financial fraud. The number of questionable donors and the amount of excessive or invalid contributions still represent a small fraction of the more than $200 million Sanders has collected from more than 2.4 million people.”

That’s from YOUR source. Try again.
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KEN
$10 million is a small amount of $200…
You’re defending a Trojan horse and too stupid to understand that.
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DAVE
Let’s tally up your attacks on Bernie Sanders:

1) You said Karl Rove worked with Bernie on the Iowa ads. The evidence shows that Karl Rove “promoted” Sanders as a means of harming Hillary, but Sanders had no part in it. If he had, I’m pretty sure the Clinton campaign, which was fond of smearing rivals, would have attacked him for it.

PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE.

2) You argued that Jeff Weaver (Bernie’s campaign manager) was married to Karl Rove’s cousin as a way of connecting the dots. You have not cited this with any evidence. His wife’s name is Jillian Malnofski. Feel free to Google it, as I have. There is nothing on her being related to Karl Rove’s cousin and, if somehow that connection does exist, there is no evidence that this relationship had anything to do with the campaign.

PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE.

3) You said Bernie received $10 million in illegal foreign donations and was consequently fined.

PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE.

There IS evidence that he received more than was legally allowed from several hundred smaller donors and this was indeed a violation and subsequently dealt with. But not the foreign contributions.

Moving on to practicalities:

RE: What was impractical, for starters you cannot demand free college from the WH, or single payer health care, it’s done in the House of Representatives.

Yes, I’m well aware that free college and single-payer aren’t automatically achieved with the wave of the President’s hand. Neither would any expansions to Obamacare. Neither Hillary nor Bernie would have been dictators. What a President CAN do is promote their positions as strongly as possible and urge Congress to pass subsequent legislation.

Bernie had the stronger platform on healthcare. In fact, 51 Democrats and counting are currently proposing an expansion of Medicare (single-payer).

Are you opposed to a single-payer system? Or do you prefer a for-profit system?

By the way, have you noticed how you’ve only been attacking Sanders and Trump? You have yet to address any substance that supports Hillary Clinton. Are you actually going to defend your candidate at some point…? Or only denigrate her competitors?
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KEN
You’re the one who has issues with the Dem Party.
link: On Bernie and Women
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DAVE
That’s a WordPress article from a blogger. Not evidence. (Yes, I posted a couple WordPress articles myself, but that was only to show my position, not as part of my argument). Try again.

Do you not have any issues with the Democratic Party? Are you okay with the DNC promoting Hillary in the primary and bashing Sanders? The DNC is supposed to be un-bias during the primary process according to their own rules. Are you okay with the Democratic reliance on donations from corporations? Private prisons? Wall Street? Big Oil? Big Phama? Etc.? Are you okay with the amount of sway held by the super-delegates, who pledged their vote to Hillary before she even announced the start of her campaign?

Does it bother you that Hillary wanted a no-fly zone in Syria that would have put us in direct conflict with Russian military? One of our own General’s said it would have required us going to war with both Syria and Russia. Did you want more war? Or what about her toppling of Gadaffi in Libya, another foreign policy disaster that even Obama cited as his biggest regret?

Btw, do you even know why we were involved in Syria? I’m curious because most Americans don’t seem to be aware of the reason.
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KEN
What bashing did the DNC do to Bernie?
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DAVE
Debbie-Wasserman Schultz (as DNC chair) accused Bernie supporters of being violent at a town hall, comparing them to Trump supporters. The DNC also received debate questions in advance from Donna Brazille while she was working at CNN (she was fired for it). Those questions were passed along to Hillary only. I dunno how you define “cheating”, but getting the questions before an exam is usually considered exactly that.

DWS was previously Hillary’s campaign manager in 2008, btw. Just throwing that out there. And Hillary hired her back to her campaign yet again RIGHT AFTER being fired from the DNC.

A few sources:
Donna Brazile fired as CNN contributor after tipping off Clinton to debate questions

Top DNC staffers out following email scandal

 

DNC chairwoman will resign in aftermath of committee email controversy

Some opinion obviously mixed in, but includes video evidence of Debbie’s bullshit attack on Bernie supporters and the proof that she lied:

Not sure if you’ve seen this, but it summaries some very harsh truths. You’ll hate it, but you won’t be able to refute what he says either.


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4 hours later, Ken still had no response. I’ll update if and when he does. But in the meantime, did you notice how often didn’t even acknowledge any of my points? How clueless he was about the DNC rigging the primary? And how he focused on how terrible he thought Bernie and Trump were instead of actually explaining what the hell made Hillary so great? I asked him multiple times to cite any of her policies and (thus far anyway) he hasn’t mentioned a single one. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Typical.

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